Exploration in RPGs

[Vladim]

2 minutes ago, cailano said:

I'll consider myself to be a really good one when I finally figure out how to have a big chunk of an adventure be wilderness exploration and have the players find it compelling and fun.

You really should look into Forbidden Lands (with the caveat that I haven't read it, so I may have no idea what I'm talking about). But it's very good with wilderness exploration, I hear. Even if you have no intention of giving up on OSR systems, I suspect that it will give you lots of good ideas. Maybe other folks familiar with Forbidden Lands can pitch in.

@97mg am I giving a correct impression of the system? I think you're better qualified to sell it.

[cailano]

I actually have a PDF of Forbidden Lands. I haven't gone through the whole thing, but it looked really cool. I'm also seriously considering running a game using the Alien boxed set at some point, and I think it's the same core system.

[Vladim]

I think both are Free League publishing. That company produces really good RPGs.

/off-topic

[cailano]

Another idea I've been using in my latest game is to boldface the elements of the scene that the players can interact with (or that might be clues). The players then get to decide how much time they want to spend investigating those elements. That, of course, is the trade-off of exploration and one reason why tracking time and resources in a game actually adds to the fun. It's not just accounting, folks. It has a purpose!

Here's an example of what I'm talking about

On 3/5/2023 at 11:04 AM, cailano said:

Inside the Charnel Ruins

Bernard and Therin count to three and lift the bar on the outside of the chapel door. The bronze doors swing open as easily as can be expected, given the state of the ruin.

Though you know little of such things, it is obvious that this chapel was dedicated to dark gods. Six skeletons lie about the room, some crushed by falling beams, all charred by fire. The bones are somehow still warm, and the scent of charred flesh and burned incense lingers in the air.

A fountain at the head of the chapel depicts a squat, demonic toad. A foul, black ichor seeps from the toad's mouth and pools in a basin seated at the foot of the fountain.

Ash and debris cover the floor in thick piles. It's hard to say what could be underneath them.

One of the skeletons is wearing a chainmail hauberk, and a blackened mace lies near its dead, outstretched hand.

 

[GaryD20]

I hate that I'm so late to this conversation. There's so much I want to comment on, I don't know where to start. 

@cailano This idea with the boldface is interesting. In a game I'm running over on Tavern Keeper the party totally ignored a frog shaped alter that would have saved them a ton of time in moving on to the next phase of the adventure. This kind of thing happens a lot. Players not investigating something important or even beneficial to them. Drives me nuts sometimes. I'm like, "Come on guys, there's a sack full of rare gems hidden inside that hollowed out tree over there." Or, "Come on guys, investigate the goblin markings on the post of this bridge you are about to cross. It might save you an ass whippin'." 

You say you're using this in your recent games? I'd be curious to know how its been working. Is it having the desired effect? You don't feel like its doing the players "thinking" for them? 

And yes, I agree wholeheartedly that tracking time and resources adds so much to the game. It can build drama, suspense, danger... I don't know why it gets such a bum wrap. It make the game so much more fun and interesting!

Edited March 20, 2023 by GaryD20 (see edit history)

[cailano]

3 minutes ago, GaryD20 said:

I hate that I'm so late to this conversation. There's so much I want to comment on, I don't know where to start. 

@cailano This idea with the boldface is interesting. In a game I'm running over on Tavern Keeper the party totally ignored a frog shaped alter that would have saved them a ton of time in moving on to the next phase of the adventure. This kind of thing happens a lot. Players not investigating something important or even beneficial to them. Drives me nuts sometimes. I'm like, "Come on guys, there's a sack full of rare gems hidden inside that hollowed out tree over there." Or, "Come on guys, investigate the goblin markings on the post of this bridge you are about to cross. It might save you an ass whippin'." 

You say you're using this in your recent games? I'd be curious to know how its been working. Is it having the desired effect? You don't feel like its doing the players "thinking" for them? 

And yes, I agree wholeheartedly that tracking time and resources adds so much to the game. It can build drama, suspense, danger... I don't know why it gets such a bum wrap. It make the game so much more fun and interesting!

It seems to be working well, but what’s working even better is the adventure design and me telling them early on that exploration is important.

The bold type doesn’t do their thinking for them because I use it for anything they can interact with. Not all of it is useful. Some of it is even dangerous. 
 

But it hasn’t taken the players long to see that there are rewards for exploration and there has been enough danger in the game that they are learning they’ll need every advantage they can find.

Good adventures are full of that kind of synergy. High threat makes players creative, and hidden stuff makes them want to explore. Exploring helps them find traps, etc, before they get killed. It also helps them discover clues, secret rooms, and all that good stuff. 

[GaryD20]

2 hours ago, cailano said:

Good adventures are full of that kind of synergy. High threat makes players creative, and hidden stuff makes them want to explore. Exploring helps them find traps, etc, before they get killed. It also helps them discover clues, secret rooms, and all that good stuff. 

Exactly! This is why I love old-school D&D. It's deadly as hell, but rewarding as hell also. It's a mindset not found in most modern RPG players (in my experience anyway). And in modern RPG systems, for that matter (again, in my experience).

2 hours ago, cailano said:

It seems to be working well, but what’s working even better is the adventure design and me telling them early on that exploration is important.

Now this hits the nail on the head! It's the GMs fault! I joke but this is truth here. Good adventure design and the GM making sure players understand the importance of exploration. Nicely said!

Edited March 20, 2023 by GaryD20 (see edit history)

[Jedaii]

  

On 3/6/2023 at 10:36 AM, cailano said:

Actana has an interesting point about dungeons and the players not knowing where to look or which way to go. Isn’t there a way we can help with that as game masters though? Maybe players would pay more attention to backstory and scene details if they ended up needing them later. 

  

On 3/6/2023 at 1:11 AM, Actana said:

...

For exploration, I like it on a high concept level, but in practice it only really works for specific kinds of games and/or scenarios. In depth dungeon exploration gets difficult, as you often lack any sort of meaningful way to know what path to take where, making exploration just a seemingly random series of choices. I'm not sure how I'd fix it myself beyond giving the players a lot more clues and information on directions, or just leaning heavily into evoking a maze-like feeling where your uncertainty is part of the point. Preferably the former over the latter as the latter tends to invoke more paranoia and analysis paralysis among players..

The whole purpose of dungeon-crawling is exploration, which isn't about knowing where to go - it's about the journey. With TSR-era D&D the group had a Mapper (who makes a map so the party doesn't get lost) and a Caller (who makes decisions for the group to avoid arguments). I'm running an AD&D 1e one-shot on MW now and it works great 😃 

I like rules over rulings for a key reason: "Mother-May-I" gaming. Rules-lite systems tend to put players in the position of asking the GM what the PCs can do and when can they do it. That kills pace and immersion playing RPGs when GMs have to do that. Instead, I like it when rules are clear enough that the players know exactly what they can do with their PCs and when they can do it without GM-Mommy granting permission for everything. Even if I'm running a rules-lite system, I'll let players know what their PCs can do so they won't have to ask permission - just doing crazy stuff with your character is the real fun of RPGs. 

 

[Vladim]

I'm not sure that all rules-lite systems should be put in the same basket, they're pretty diverse and numerous, but you're of course entitled to your own opinions and preferences. 

That being said, the doing crazy stuff bit-I don't know. Sure, it can be fun, at least for some games, but in my (limited) experience it leads to some pretty unserious/slapstick/gonzo stories... which is fine if that's what you want. Personally not my cuppa, but YMMV.

[cailano]

1 hour ago, Vladim said:

I'm not sure that all rules-lite systems should be put in the same basket, they're pretty diverse and numerous, but you're of course entitled to your own opinions and preferences. 

That being said, the doing crazy stuff bit-I don't know. Sure, it can be fun, at least for some games, but in my (limited) experience it leads to some pretty unserious/slapstick/gonzo stories... which is fine if that's what you want. Personally not my cuppa, but YMMV.

Hmm... I'm guessing you're not a Dungeon Crawl Classics fan.

[cailano]

2 hours ago, Jedaii said:

  

  

The whole purpose of dungeon-crawling is exploration, which isn't about knowing where to go - it's about the journey. With TSR-era D&D the group had a Mapper (who makes a map so the party doesn't get lost) and a Caller (who makes decisions for the group to avoid arguments). I'm running an AD&D 1e one-shot on MW now and it works great 😃 

I like rules over rulings for a key reason: "Mother-May-I" gaming. Rules-lite systems tend to put players in the position of asking the GM what the PCs can do and when can they do it. That kills pace and immersion playing RPGs when GMs have to do that. Instead, I like it when rules are clear enough that the players know exactly what they can do with their PCs and when they can do it without GM-Mommy granting permission for everything. Even if I'm running a rules-lite system, I'll let players know what their PCs can do so they won't have to ask permission - just doing crazy stuff with your character is the real fun of RPGs. 

 

Agreed that dungeon crawls are all about exploration. It takes a good GM to run a good crawl, but what in this hobby doesn't require a good GM?

I think you've had a bad experience with rules-lite systems, though. The GM shouldn't set themselves or their players up for that kind of game. Instead, the players should feel free to declare any action they can think of. There's no "mother-may-I run up the dragon's tail and climb on its back?" The player should just declare the action. The GM should then make a quick ruling about how that sort of activity works and then likely describe how the dragon eats said PC.

I've played a lot of systems, and I've never found that complex rule sets do anything but slow down play and create undesirable game states. Either a player doesn't have good system mastery, which hampers their character, or else they have incredible system mastery, and they find exploits and character optimizations.

Complex rules and optimizations make for games that are hard to learn for the players and easy to survive for the characters. I like my games the other way around.

I completely agree about players doing awesome stuff with their characters. That's what RPGs are all about. The excitement of discovery, the threat of defeat, the thrill of a well-earned victory, and PCs doing awesome stuff. If you've got all that, you've got a great game.

[Vladim]

17 minutes ago, cailano said:

Hmm... I'm guessing you're not a Dungeon Crawl Classics fan.

No idea, to be honest! Never tried it, but I try to keep an open mind 🙂

[cailano]

15 minutes ago, Vladim said:

No idea, to be honest! Never tried it, but I try to keep an open mind 🙂

Their adventures are gonzo AF, but it's all in the spirit of Appendix N. I find the system well-suited for PbP because the mechanics lend themselves to the PCs doing awesome stuff without needing complex builds and because the adventures offer some unique experiences even at low levels. There's no waiting for the weirdness to kick in with DCC. It's gonzo out of the box.

[Actana]

17 hours ago, Jedaii said:

 The whole purpose of dungeon-crawling is exploration, which isn't about knowing where to go - it's about the journey. With TSR-era D&D the group had a Mapper (who makes a map so the party doesn't get lost) and a Caller (who makes decisions for the group to avoid arguments). I'm running an AD&D 1e one-shot on MW now and it works great 😃 

I like rules over rulings for a key reason: "Mother-May-I" gaming. Rules-lite systems tend to put players in the position of asking the GM what the PCs can do and when can they do it. That kills pace and immersion playing RPGs when GMs have to do that. Instead, I like it when rules are clear enough that the players know exactly what they can do with their PCs and when they can do it without GM-Mommy granting permission for everything. Even if I'm running a rules-lite system, I'll let players know what their PCs can do so they won't have to ask permission - just doing crazy stuff with your character is the real fun of RPGs. 

Without getting into that latter part which deserves its very own thread (and is also painting many games with a single brush, in not very friendly terms either), I do still want to tackle that first half. "Exploration is the point of a dungeon crawl" is a bold statement. Exploration is a part of a dungeon crawl feels more realistic to me, as I don't really enjoy dealing in absolutes like that (something something Sith). But I'd also like to dive even deeper into the question: what is the point of exploration in turn? I do not think it is of inherent value, but instead a vehicle for something else: Discovery.

You explore to discover things. Those things can be anything, from loot to scenery to story to just small moments or exciting encounters with hostile denizens. Our characters also typically explore to discover things (often loot), and combining the wants of the players and their characters often leads to the best results in terms of motivation. I personally value the idea of discovering a story greatly, as it's something that builds a lot of context and immersion in a game: the idea that we aren't the first people here and we're discovering things that others left behind, thus learning both the story of the place and of those who came before. But loot is a lot more obvious and an easy choice.

 

Discovery itself consists of several factors, the three most apparent and important to me are anticipation, tension and payoff.

Anticipation is, as the name implies, the expectation of something. It's easy to get excited when you think of what might be beyond the horizon. To get anticipation, you also need to provide enough context for a decision to provoke anticipation. If there are two identical doors with corridors behind them, one going left and the other right, it's hard to build any anticipation as there is nothing to latch onto. There's no reason to pick one over the other, so it's an arbitrary choice. And to me, anticipation in discovery is built by choice: the players choose to do something, go somewhere because they think there's something worth looking for there. The players go after the dragon because they anticipate a large hoard of gold in its lair, even if they don't know it's there.

Tension is important in all narratives, the idea of uncertainty and danger. Is what they're going to find worth it? Can we risk going further or do we retreat? This is very often helped by the mechanics of a game, resource attrition and risks of danger and loss. Not sure there's too much to talk about here, this is where a lot of the gameplay happens and helps (or hinders!) build tension. Not every game is as good at building tension for these situations, though each game also does discovery a bit differently and with different values, and thus must approach the building of tension differently. Know your tools etc.

Finally, we get the Payoff. This is the moment where we reach our goal and reap our rewards. We stash the gold, we learn the secrets, we find that epic vista that the GM so proficiently narrates for us. The moment of catharsis, where our anticipation is rewarded and our tension releases, and everyone breathes out. Ideally. Not always. Payoff can very easily be subverted too. Maybe the villain got to the ancient treasure first. Maybe the dragon didn't have a lot of gold after all. Maybe there was no secret of Monkey Island™. Subverting the payoff can be powerful, but also risky, and like any plot twist needs to be set up well beforehand so that the natural reaction is less "well this sucks" and more "we should have seen that one coming".

This is the end of the journey to discover, but it can easily set up more anticipation. One instance of Discovery can contain several sub-Discoveries in it as well, smaller moments of anticipations, tensions and payoffs that all build towards the larger one. You can also have several of them happening at once, where people anticipate different things, though typically the tension mostly remains the same for everyone (though of course a character's internal challenges can affect the tension - not all PCs are aligned or going through the same troubles).

 

Edit: It's important, I feel, to note that Discovery doesn't require a dungeon. Discovery can be done anywhere. Dungeons are, however, a convenient and closed environment to deliver Tension. They're easy to plan for, have a limited amount of things to interact with and generally laid out in a way that allows the players to progress at a good pace in an environment that is rife with potential danger. But discovery happens in the wilderness as well, it happens in plots of intrigue and social conflicts. You just need to set the anticipation and payoff accordingly, and if there isn't an easy way to deliver any of the three main points of anticipation, tension and payoff, then maybe that particular scene shouldn't have discovery in it, and instead consist of something else. Travel montages can be made pretty fun, for example. You don't discover so much as collaborate on the narrative, delivering character moments that are built around Fellowship instead of Discovery. What's that? Fellowship? I don't know, maybe a topic for another thread.

/Edit

 

I would also like to contest the idea that having someone obsess over a sheet of graph paper to build the dungeon floor and hope they don't mishear what the DM said about the dimensions. To me this is far too prescriptive in how dungeons can be built: verticality, unusual shapes, etc all are hindered by the need to fit a dungeon onto a sheet of paper. Pointcrawls (perhaps supplemented by evocative drawings of certain areas), to me, are much more poignant, not to mention easier to handle. Maps can be cool, but I wouldn't want to put a player in charge of them. Certainly could put a character in charge, but not a player. YMMV.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Actana (see edit history)

[cailano]

Actana I have to admit your post was a bit TLDR but I skimmed it. I think exploration is a lot of fun but if there consistently isn't anything interesting to discover, players will stop doing it. Conversely, if they find out there are interesting things to discover, they'll explore everything. That's critical to making old-school dungeon and hex crawls work.